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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2006 13:31:16 GMT -5
I disagree, the "iffiness" comes in when there are varying opinions among doctors that a person is terminal or not, and that happens every day. Grumpy, the only time there is really any disagreement over that is in the early stages of an illness. And then the patient might still have enough quality of life to wait anyway. By the time someone is at the point of wanting assisted suicide is when there is NO argument over whether it's terminal, they are wasting away, unable to get out of bed, under so many heavy pain-killers that they can't tell reality from dreams... and just before they go on life support. At that point, it's pretty obvious to EVERYONE that the patient is dying, and doing so slowly and painfully. If YOU wish to hang on until you no longer can, that is your decision. Mine is different and you do NOT have the right to take it from me. Nonsense, I've been to the point of "wishing I were dead" with a ruptured disk...that was 30 some odd years ago.
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Post by heathenesque on Dec 18, 2006 13:35:31 GMT -5
Grumpy, the only time there is really any disagreement over that is in the early stages of an illness. And then the patient might still have enough quality of life to wait anyway. By the time someone is at the point of wanting assisted suicide is when there is NO argument over whether it's terminal, they are wasting away, unable to get out of bed, under so many heavy pain-killers that they can't tell reality from dreams... and just before they go on life support. At that point, it's pretty obvious to EVERYONE that the patient is dying, and doing so slowly and painfully. If YOU wish to hang on until you no longer can, that is your decision. Mine is different and you do NOT have the right to take it from me. Nonsense, I've been to the point of "wishing I were dead" with a ruptured disk...that was 30 some odd years ago. I don't think a ruptured disk is anywhere NEAR terminal Cancer, Grumps. And I'll bet that several people on this board alone, will be more than happy to set you straight on that. Ruptured disks are not terminal, they will not kill you, and you will not waste away to nothing in so much agony that your organs start to shut down from the overload. THAT was highly insulting to anyone who has had to watch a loved one die from Cancer or some other terminal illness.
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Post by Anna on Dec 18, 2006 13:49:30 GMT -5
I don't think a ruptured disk is anywhere NEAR terminal Cancer, Grumps. And I'll bet that several people on this board alone, will be more than happy to set you straight on that. Ruptured disks are not terminal, they will not kill you, and you will not waste away to nothing in so much agony that your organs start to shut down from the overload. THAT was highly insulting to anyone who has had to watch a loved one die from Cancer or some other terminal illness. I didn't find Grumpy's words insulting. Pain, even when not associated with a terminal condition, does reach the level of agony. I can't minimize another person's pain even though that pain is not going to eventually kill them. I had an uncle who was in such pain, but not terminal. He shot and killed himself in order to find relief....death wasn't going to come, so he brought it on.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2006 13:56:42 GMT -5
THAT was highly insulting to anyone who has had to watch a loved one die from Cancer or some other terminal illness. Bite me. I was the sole provider and care giver when my own mother died of colon cancer in 1993.
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Post by bizzalou on Dec 18, 2006 17:35:48 GMT -5
It's an imperfect world, filled with imperfect people. I should know cuz I are one. So am I. But does this give one group of people the right to make decisions that effect everyone? Even those who disagree on philosophical grounds? That's the question. Do you, or Bizz, or Koinonia, or Grumpy have the right to decide whether I can be allowed to die with dignity, if I prefer to do so? Is it compassion to force a person to continue existing, who does not wish to live in pain any longer? No, we don't...and I've never suggested that we (or anyone else) should. My only reason for posting on this issue was to give my perspective as to why mercy killing is wrong... TO ME. It explains why I wouldn't choose it.... FOR ME. Never once did I say, or allude to any suggestion that I think laws should be enacted to prohibit others from ending their lives on their own, if they wished to choose it FOR THEM. For the record..... 1. I don't think there should be laws against euthanasia for people who are mentally sound and capable of making that decision for themselves, rationally. 2. I do not believe that Kevorkian should have been convicted and sent to prison for doing what he was asked to do, by mentally sound people capable of making decisions for themselves. ....and lastly.... 3. I believe this is a very personal issue that should be left to each individual to decide, based on their moral, ethical, and/or religious beliefs. As such...and as a person with those same rights, I would not choose so, for myself, because of MY personal religious beliefs. I just don't know if I can say it any plainer.
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Post by mrsp on Dec 18, 2006 18:26:03 GMT -5
[I don't think a ruptured disk is anywhere NEAR terminal Cancer, Grumps. And I'll bet that several people on this board alone, will be more than happy to set you straight on that. Ruptured disks are not terminal, they will not kill you, and you will not waste away to nothing in so much agony that your organs start to shut down from the overload. THAT was highly insulting to anyone who has had to watch a loved one die from Cancer or some other terminal illness. Having a terminal illness is not the only reason someone might consider ending their life. Long term continuing extreme pain is certainly a valid reason for some people. Heck, if I had extreme untreatable pain, it would drive me insane, literally. There are many cases of people who suffer a great dael of pain that can not be eased with medication. Its a horrible way to live.
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Post by Chevy on Dec 18, 2006 22:36:10 GMT -5
[I don't think a ruptured disk is anywhere NEAR terminal Cancer, Grumps. And I'll bet that several people on this board alone, will be more than happy to set you straight on that. Ruptured disks are not terminal, they will not kill you, and you will not waste away to nothing in so much agony that your organs start to shut down from the overload. THAT was highly insulting to anyone who has had to watch a loved one die from Cancer or some other terminal illness. Having a terminal illness is not the only reason someone might consider ending their life. Long term continuing extreme pain is certainly a valid reason for some people. Heck, if I had extreme untreatable pain, it would drive me insane, literally. There are many cases of people who suffer a great dael of pain that can not be eased with medication. Its a horrible way to live. Tell me about it... the best they can do for me is to make it bearable, but it is never gone, and there are days... well. All I can say is, I can understand people who would want to end their lives to stop the pain, even though the condition itself is not terminal. Living with excruciating, crippling pain is mentally exhausting, it wears on your temperament and it ruins your sense of self. When you cannot stand at the sink for the length of time it takes to wash the dishes, without falling to the floor because your back goes into uncontrollable spasms and you legs just suddenly will no longer hold you up... It makes you feel USELESS as a person. You feel like such a drain on your family and friends. Suddenly everything that used to be simple is just beyond you. The house you took such pride in falls behind more and more every day because you can't do the work yourself and you already feel guilty with the load your family has picked up from your worthless self; you don't feel comfortable asking them to do more. And you realize, with every passing day, just how much there is to do that is not getting done, and how much further you are falling behind. For the one who used to be the 'git 'r done' type, that everyone could depend on to make sure things went right, watching everything spin out of control and your family taking on the burden of YOUR responsibilities on top of their own is enough to destroy your soul. It is not just one thing, it is EVERY thing, every tiny aspect of your life is suddenly and irrevocably changed, when you are crippled. One of the worst, for a dog breeder, is the loss of connection with your dogs. You can no longer stand long enough to give each dog their daily training session, and a simple chore like cleaning the kennels, normally a 20 minute cakewalk, is enough to put you in a chair for the rest of the afternoon. Let's not even talk about trying to lift a bag of feed, or even a 5-gallon bucket of water... Talk asbout feeling useless! Sleeping on the floor next to the new mommies is no longer just a nuisance and a stiff back in the morning, now it is not even possible. Teaching the babies as they grow is an essential part of the process, and it is very hands-on intensive for pups destined to be search and rescue candidates or future police dogs, but the kind and amount of guidance is daunting now. Producing high quality dogs that owners brag about and professionals rely on has been my life for over thirty years. It is honest and useful work, provides a necessary service and brings joy to other's lives. There is a sense of satisfaction in giving back to your community and using your skills to provide useful partners for others. Now I am in the position of training one of my dogs to be my OWN assistance dog; what irony! It is easy to look at how much you have lost, at the virtual destruction of every aspect of your life that brought you joy, and feel that a continued existence in such a state is merely postponing the inevitable, and just not worth the toll on those you love. That being said, I have always been a glass-half-full sort of person. I have so many things to be thankful for, and I've never had much use for self-pity. Yeah, I hurt, and I hurt all the time, but I'm not in a wheelchair; I can walk, and if I take enough pain pills I can even work, a little. I am not alone, I have a loving family who is *willing* to help. I *do* have the luxury of raising my own service dog, and she will make the burden on my family less. And I have not yet given up on being able to help bring in part of the bacon; not as much as I used to but I still do contribute. Nor am I unaware that my family and friends would miss me if I were gone. Suicide is not an option for a host of reasons, life still has plenty of joys. All I am trying to convey here is that constant pain *can* be enough, definitely, to cause someone to be desperate enough to take their own life to end it. And to try to explain how some can come to that conclusion and feel it is their best, maybe their only, option.
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Post by mrsp on Dec 18, 2006 22:39:58 GMT -5
I'll continue to pray for you dear. Although I haven't had anything close to such pain, I know people who do.
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Post by Rusty on Dec 18, 2006 22:50:04 GMT -5
Chevy,after reading your post I asertain that your are one determined and courageous individual. You certainly can teach a thing or two to us who complain about more trivial things like cold coffee.I hope everyone here reads what you have posted
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Post by Chevy on Dec 18, 2006 23:48:41 GMT -5
Well, it's not that big a deal, what are the choices after all? LOL Believe it or not, I actually am pretty happy most of the time. I get frustrated a LOT, and sometimes I get down, but Vox and my son are a constant source of joy. And it's hard to stay down watching puppies frolic and baby chicks tumble around after their mothers... It's not so bad; I didn't mean to make it sound that way, just trying to describe *why* some people could see endless pain as a good reason to commit suicide.
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Post by heathenesque on Dec 19, 2006 2:56:41 GMT -5
My apologies, Bizz. I know and understood what you meant, and I respect your position. I was just listing off names to try and drive the point home.
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Post by heathenesque on Dec 19, 2006 3:00:23 GMT -5
It wasn't my intention to offend anyone. I apologize if I did.
But I -do- feel that it should be left to the individual whether they should have assisted suicide, and I hope and pray that IF I am ever in that position, no one comes in and prevents me from making MY choice to die with dignity.
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Post by bear on Dec 19, 2006 3:37:31 GMT -5
Having a terminal illness is not the only reason someone might consider ending their life. Long term continuing extreme pain is certainly a valid reason for some people. Heck, if I had extreme untreatable pain, it would drive me insane, literally. There are many cases of people who suffer a great dael of pain that can not be eased with medication. Its a horrible way to live. Tell me about it... the best they can do for me is to make it bearable, but it is never gone, and there are days... well. All I can say is, I can understand people who would want to end their lives to stop the pain, even though the condition itself is not terminal. Living with excruciating, crippling pain is mentally exhausting, it wears on your temperament and it ruins your sense of self. When you cannot stand at the sink for the length of time it takes to wash the dishes, without falling to the floor because your back goes into uncontrollable spasms and you legs just suddenly will no longer hold you up... It makes you feel USELESS as a person. You feel like such a drain on your family and friends. Suddenly everything that used to be simple is just beyond you. The house you took such pride in falls behind more and more every day because you can't do the work yourself and you already feel guilty with the load your family has picked up from your worthless self; you don't feel comfortable asking them to do more. And you realize, with every passing day, just how much there is to do that is not getting done, and how much further you are falling behind. For the one who used to be the 'git 'r done' type, that everyone could depend on to make sure things went right, watching everything spin out of control and your family taking on the burden of YOUR responsibilities on top of their own is enough to destroy your soul. It is not just one thing, it is EVERY thing, every tiny aspect of your life is suddenly and irrevocably changed, when you are crippled. One of the worst, for a dog breeder, is the loss of connection with your dogs. You can no longer stand long enough to give each dog their daily training session, and a simple chore like cleaning the kennels, normally a 20 minute cakewalk, is enough to put you in a chair for the rest of the afternoon. Let's not even talk about trying to lift a bag of feed, or even a 5-gallon bucket of water... Talk asbout feeling useless! Sleeping on the floor next to the new mommies is no longer just a nuisance and a stiff back in the morning, now it is not even possible. Teaching the babies as they grow is an essential part of the process, and it is very hands-on intensive for pups destined to be search and rescue candidates or future police dogs, but the kind and amount of guidance is daunting now. Producing high quality dogs that owners brag about and professionals rely on has been my life for over thirty years. It is honest and useful work, provides a necessary service and brings joy to other's lives. There is a sense of satisfaction in giving back to your community and using your skills to provide useful partners for others. Now I am in the position of training one of my dogs to be my OWN assistance dog; what irony! It is easy to look at how much you have lost, at the virtual destruction of every aspect of your life that brought you joy, and feel that a continued existence in such a state is merely postponing the inevitable, and just not worth the toll on those you love. That being said, I have always been a glass-half-full sort of person. I have so many things to be thankful for, and I've never had much use for self-pity. Yeah, I hurt, and I hurt all the time, but I'm not in a wheelchair; I can walk, and if I take enough pain pills I can even work, a little. I am not alone, I have a loving family who is *willing* to help. I *do* have the luxury of raising my own service dog, and she will make the burden on my family less. And I have not yet given up on being able to help bring in part of the bacon; not as much as I used to but I still do contribute. Nor am I unaware that my family and friends would miss me if I were gone. Suicide is not an option for a host of reasons, life still has plenty of joys. All I am trying to convey here is that constant pain *can* be enough, definitely, to cause someone to be desperate enough to take their own life to end it. And to try to explain how some can come to that conclusion and feel it is their best, maybe their only, option. I to have a hard time getting around and live with constant pain in my leg... A great post der young lady and I know were you are coming from.. It's great to have Vox and your child in your life... your a special lady Take care of her Vox
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Post by Sasha on Dec 19, 2006 3:56:07 GMT -5
I don't think he should have been convicted in the first place. I sure wouldn't want to linger and to be a burden on my family. That thought would horrify me. I can identify with Chevy and her constant pain. I too have a condition where the pain is constant. While my condition isn't terminal, my condition is one that will at some point and time render me a cripple. That pain is part of why I am awake at this hour, reading this thread, and responding to it. As to actually going through with it, I don't know whether I could or not. Everything about it screams against the religious teachings I was brought up with. But, I can respect those who believe it should be a right.
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