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Post by shyone on Dec 15, 2006 11:39:21 GMT -5
we are animals too and I don't see the difference in what a persons wishes are. If they are terminal and there is NO chance for recovery then I do not see anything wrong with it. By saying that pets or such is different then human I don't see a difference, we are both breathing living creatures with souls. Animals are NOT people. They do not have souls, they cannot think & reason. An animal does not know that one day it will die, people do know that, they know that they will be no more one day. An animal just takes one day at a time as lives according to it's instint. They cannot think or reason. I find it insulting to place people and animals on the same level. Even the bible sez we are above all creatures of the earth. You can believe what you want to and that is fine with me. I do believe animals have souls and I have seen or experience something to make me believe it. About ten years ago I had to put my dog down, her kidneys were failing and the doctor didnt think there was anything to do, so after asking the doctor if he thaught she was suffering he said he thaught so. I then decided to put her down. I had her on my lap and was petting her and telling her I loved her when He gave her the shot. I looked down at her and I saw my dog, she stopped breathing and I felt a weird sensation go through my body, I then looked down again and all I saw was the carcus of a dog, it looked totally different and I believe the feeling I got was her soul going through me. You all can think I am nuts or whatever. But I dont care I know what happened and this made me a firm believer that animals have souls.
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Post by heathenesque on Dec 15, 2006 11:55:52 GMT -5
I'm with you on this Shyone. I cannot say for a -fact- that I have a soul, or that my cat Chaos has a soul. But I firmly -believe- that we do.
My cat does not survive by instinct alone. He's intelligent and has learned that certain behaviors are not acceptable. Now, if he were living just off of instinct, he would either NOT be trainable, or he would simply stop the behavior that gets him into trouble.
For example, the little snot has a fascination with disposable lighters. He will steal them and squirrel them away, until even tually we have to tear the house apart to find them. He will strash them all in one place, too.
Once we find his stash, the process begins all over again, except he finds a new place to stash them. When we catch him, we punish him for it. he -should- learn to leave them alone... right?
Instead, he's learned how to be sneaky about it, and how to run very fast when he's caught. ;D
He's also successfully trained ME. I now put my lighters up where he can't get to them.
If he didn't have a soul, would he be as unique as he is? Or would he be like every other cat on the planet? Is this part of what makes up a 'soul'?
Like I said in a previous post, we cannot quanitfy the human soul. We cannot even say for a fact we HAVE souls. So we cannot say that animals do or don't, either. But I have faith that we and the animals on this planet do have them.
And yet, the question I asked previously really hasn't been answered. Perhaps it was my fault, and I didn't phrase it right.
So let me ask again, in different words...
Why is it considered "cruel" to allow a terminally ill, or severely injured animal to continue living, even though we know that animal will never get better, and only get worse? But yet, it's NOT considered cruel to force a terminally ill human to continue to live, even though he/she will only get worse?
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Post by Koinonia on Dec 15, 2006 13:07:53 GMT -5
[If someone is not feeling well or lives in pain, you don't take advantage of their misery and kill them. I agree no one should kill someone just because someone is terminal. But, as in all the cases Kavorkian was involved in, an individual wants to die and asks for assistance, I do not think the person providing the means should be charged as a criminal. It is doing the terminal person's wishes. From the police and prosecutor's point of view, if a sick person asks someone to provide the means to kill the sick person, it's complicity in taking a life. I believe suicide is illegal still anyway. Is someone wants to kill himself, all he has to do is take an overdose of barbituates, sleeping pills, stick his head in the bathtub, shoot or knife himself and other easy methods. Kevorkian was a psycho, a madman. He thrived on people killing themselves and the attention he received from the news. He got what was coming to him. I hope he repents before he leaves the earth because after that, he will really get what he deserves.
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Post by Koinonia on Dec 15, 2006 13:11:46 GMT -5
I do believe it was immoral, and I will say that it is due to my religious beliefs. The way I feel about it is...if I were suffering long from a terminal illness, and that illness, and the way in which I accepted it were God's test for my salvation, what am I doing by ending my own life before he would? I hope that I would be strong enough in my faith, even in that kind of pain, to continue to let his will be done. Again...that is my belief, based on my faith. Others feel differently, and I respect that. While I can see the parallel that some try to draw with how we euthanize our pets who suffer...I offer this...again, based on my faith, we were made in God's image - animals were not. Animals were given to man, and placed in charge of them by God. I believe that because of this, the decision to end the suffering of an animal is not immoral - because it was left to man by God to decide. Just my perspective on the subject.... Exactly what I believe. Well written. Thank you. Animals have no soul but Jesus paid the price for mankind by dying on that cross. He made us in the image and likeness of God.
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Post by Koinonia on Dec 15, 2006 13:17:56 GMT -5
Because we ARE human beings and pets are animals. If someone is not feeling well or lives in pain, you don't take advantage of their misery and kill them. This guy was a psychopath. He was attention starved. He was a mentally sick individual. I saw the little dip at a store once and was almost ready to punch his face in. The criminal system did it for me. we are animals too and I don't see the difference in what a persons wishes are. If they are terminal and there is NO chance for recovery then I do not see anything wrong with it. By saying that pets or such is different then human I don't see a difference, we are both breathing living creatures with souls. So is a rat. It breathes and lives and even runs away in fear from cats. That's the extent of our similarities with animals. Animals have no soul, they have no reasoning skills, don't go to work to collect a paycheck, etc. They live merely by instinct. Jesus did not die on the cross for animals, only people. People can ask for forgiveness and receive forgiveness. I don't even want to get into the deceptiveness of satan at this point.
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Post by Koinonia on Dec 15, 2006 13:20:18 GMT -5
Animals are NOT people. They do not have souls, they cannot think & reason. An animal does not know that one day it will die, people do know that, they know that they will be no more one day. An animal just takes one day at a time as lives according to it's instint. They cannot think or reason. I find it insulting to place people and animals on the same level. Even the bible sez we are above all creatures of the earth. You can believe what you want to and that is fine with me. I do believe animals have souls and I have seen or experience something to make me believe it. About ten years ago I had to put my dog down, her kidneys were failing and the doctor didnt think there was anything to do, so after asking the doctor if he thaught she was suffering he said he thaught so. I then decided to put her down. I had her on my lap and was petting her and telling her I loved her when He gave her the shot. I looked down at her and I saw my dog, she stopped breathing and I felt a weird sensation go through my body, I then looked down again and all I saw was the carcus of a dog, it looked totally different and I believe the feeling I got was her soul going through me. You all can think I am nuts or whatever. But I dont care I know what happened and this made me a firm believer that animals have souls. YOu're not nuts. (yet) If you keep believing this, though, we may have to have you locked up for a while. ;D
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Post by charlestongrrl on Dec 15, 2006 19:09:58 GMT -5
I know that what he did was not legal, but I think it was moral. Provided that the person was truely requesiting this be done. I know that if I were in constant pain and wanted to just end it, I would want help instead of my loved ones allowing me to agonize and go against my wishes. I hope he doesnt do it again b/c it's illegal, but I hope that they change the laws.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2006 19:12:32 GMT -5
I know that what he did was not legal, but I think it was moral. Provided that the person was truely requesiting this be done. I know that if I were in constant pain and wanted to just end it, I would want help instead of my loved ones allowing me to agonize and go against my wishes. I hope he doesnt do it again b/c it's illegal, but I hope that they change the laws. It wasn't so much his "doing it", to me, as it was his apparent "JOY" in doing so...the guy is a freak, IMO.
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Post by charlestongrrl on Dec 15, 2006 19:13:07 GMT -5
we are animals too and I don't see the difference in what a persons wishes are. If they are terminal and there is NO chance for recovery then I do not see anything wrong with it. By saying that pets or such is different then human I don't see a difference, we are both breathing living creatures with souls. So is a rat. It breathes and lives and even runs away in fear from cats. That's the extent of our similarities with animals. Animals have no soul, they have no reasoning skills, don't go to work to collect a paycheck, etc. They live merely by instinct. Jesus did not die on the cross for animals, only people. People can ask for forgiveness and receive forgiveness. I don't even want to get into the deceptiveness of satan at this point. Well, I think that animals do have souls. I cant prove it, but I cant prove I have one either... I think its just my belief and I leave it at that. I am not gonna try to convince anyone of that... just lets say that I respectfully disagree with you.
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Post by charlestongrrl on Dec 15, 2006 19:13:48 GMT -5
I know that what he did was not legal, but I think it was moral. Provided that the person was truely requesiting this be done. I know that if I were in constant pain and wanted to just end it, I would want help instead of my loved ones allowing me to agonize and go against my wishes. I hope he doesnt do it again b/c it's illegal, but I hope that they change the laws. It wasn't so much his "doing it", to me, as it was his apparent "JOY" in doing so...the guy is a freak, IMO. I can see that... but he also helped people that wanted it. So, I gotta weigh that heavier in my mind.
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Post by shyone on Dec 15, 2006 19:43:40 GMT -5
we are animals too and I don't see the difference in what a persons wishes are. If they are terminal and there is NO chance for recovery then I do not see anything wrong with it. By saying that pets or such is different then human I don't see a difference, we are both breathing living creatures with souls. So is a rat. It breathes and lives and even runs away in fear from cats. That's the extent of our similarities with animals. Animals have no soul, they have no reasoning skills, don't go to work to collect a paycheck, etc. They live merely by instinct. Jesus did not die on the cross for animals, only people. People can ask for forgiveness and receive forgiveness. I don't even want to get into the deceptiveness of satan at this point. Where is the proof that animals don't have souls? This is your belief and I respect that. I know something happened when my dog died, I cant explain it but to me it was her soul. animals and people both have instincts. Everyone has them to survive, they are just different forms.
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Post by charlestongrrl on Dec 15, 2006 19:48:55 GMT -5
So is a rat. It breathes and lives and even runs away in fear from cats. That's the extent of our similarities with animals. Animals have no soul, they have no reasoning skills, don't go to work to collect a paycheck, etc. They live merely by instinct. Jesus did not die on the cross for animals, only people. People can ask for forgiveness and receive forgiveness. I don't even want to get into the deceptiveness of satan at this point. Where is the proof that animals don't have souls? This is your belief and I respect that. I know something happened when my dog died, I cant explain it but to me it was her soul. animals and people both have instincts. Everyone has them to survive, they are just different forms. Gotta agree with you on this one...
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Post by Koinonia on Dec 16, 2006 9:15:06 GMT -5
Genesis 1: 20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
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Post by Koinonia on Dec 16, 2006 9:32:23 GMT -5
If you are a Christian, then you know the basic tenets of your faith (hopefully). The most basic and important one is that Jesus gave His life for mankind on the cross. He said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47 OR "For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" (Matthew 16:26
People have souls because we are made up of 3 components, spirit, soul and body. The soul is a combination of our emotions, feelings, thinking ability, desires, reasoning skills and so on. The other 2 are self defining.
Animals cannot believe like we believe. We do not teach animals to receive Jesus into their lives so they can go to heaven. They are not capable of understanding salvation. God gave us the gift of eternal life because we can either choose to accept Him or reject Him. That is part of our soul. Animals cannot do that. The Bible is very clear on this.
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Post by mrsp on Dec 16, 2006 10:05:44 GMT -5
I believe suicide is illegal still anyway. I've always thought those laws were ridiculous. What are they gonna do? Prosecute a dead person?
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