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Post by Koinonia on Dec 17, 2006 6:35:19 GMT -5
When those laws were passed, people used to follow the law. If a sign said, 'Keep off the grass', people acknowledged the sign and did not step on the grass. now, there is no regard for the law or signs.
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Post by Chevy on Dec 17, 2006 16:29:15 GMT -5
Lemme see: so as a Christian, you believe the *right* thing to do is accept whatever pain that God sends to you; and that ending this pain instead of terminating it is violating his wishes?
Hmmm.
Does this reasoning extend to your medicine cabinet, or only to terminal illness? I mean, if you *truly* believe that ending your own life due to terminal illness is wrong because you are defying God's wishes for you to endure this experience, then do you feel the same way about taking Advil for muscle aches? How about PeptoBismol for diarrhea? Or Preparation H... after all, hemorrhoids were a Biblical affliction used to punish evil nations...
I am not making fun, truly. I just want some of you who make this "all or nothing" pronouncements based on your "faith" to truly think about, and face, what you are saying here.
Also, I didn't see any 'glee' in Kevorkian's stand, and I do not think he 'got off' on killing people. I think this is an eye of the beholder thing, and something attributed to him by those who deplore his methods. I see that he felt strongly about doctor-assisted suicide, and that he was willing to risk (and eventually, endure) imprisonment for his beliefs. Funny thing, Christian martyrs who break laws for their beliefs are seen as heroes... can anybody say 'hypocrisy?' I thought you could. One person;s 'hero' is another person's 'zealot.' Same situation, different perspective.
The fact is, it was LARGELY due to the exposure of the issue, brought on BY Kevorkian's acts, that assisted suicide is now legal in some states. If he was so wrong, and such a ghoul, then why do so many people agree with him? I find it amazing that people will take comfort in knowing that 'the majority' agrees with them, and use this as justification for their beliefs... but when 'the majority' disagrees with them, they take JUST as much delight in denouncing that majority as 'clueless.' People are funny creatures...
And speaking of people being creatures, I agree with Heathen and Mrs. P that we are kinder to our pets than we are to one another, on the subject of ending life with dignity. I see no moral issue with ending the suffering of a terminal patient. There is a big difference between some teenager or jilted lover who takes their life as some dramatic act 'to end the pain,' and someone dying of cancer or some other horrifically painful illness that has robbed them of any semblance of joy in life. This is not life, it is existing in agony, and it is IMO CRUEL on the part of those who would deny them the opportunity to decide when they have had enough.
As for souls, humans are extremely arrogant to believe they are the ONLY ones so privileged... Quote that book all you want to, aimhigh; it is certainly NOT the only source of spiritual enlightenment on this planet, and hate to break it to you but your self-serving interpretation isn't even honest to the letter of its law. You, as most other current Christians, pick and choose the tenets you agree with and ignore the rest. Sorry, but that does not give you any kind of moral claim to high ground here or elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2006 17:12:37 GMT -5
Also, I didn't see any 'glee' in Kevorkian's stand, and I do not think he 'got off' on killing people. I think this is an eye of the beholder thing, and something attributed to him by those who deplore his methods. I see that he felt strongly about doctor-assisted suicide, and that he was willing to risk (and eventually, endure) imprisonment for his beliefs. Funny thing, Christian martyrs who break laws for their beliefs are seen as heroes... can anybody say 'hypocrisy?' I thought you could. One person;s 'hero' is another person's 'zealot.' Same situation, different perspective. What a pile of BS, it was obvious that he enjoyed taking lives. You weren't paying attention or were too wrapped up in your own opinion of the actual acts to see it.
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Post by Anna on Dec 17, 2006 17:19:22 GMT -5
Lemme see: so as a Christian, you believe ... Calling into question another's Christianity seems to be all the rage nowadays. Tasteless.
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Post by bizzalou on Dec 17, 2006 17:21:17 GMT -5
Lemme see: so as a Christian, you believe the *right* thing to do is accept whatever pain that God sends to you; and that ending this pain instead of terminating it is violating his wishes? Hmmm. Does this reasoning extend to your medicine cabinet, or only to terminal illness? I mean, if you *truly* believe that ending your own life due to terminal illness is wrong because you are defying God's wishes for you to endure this experience, then do you feel the same way about taking Advil for muscle aches? How about PeptoBismol for diarrhea? Or Preparation H... after all, hemorrhoids were a Biblical affliction used to punish evil nations... I am not making fun, truly. I just want some of you who make this "all or nothing" pronouncements based on your "faith" to truly think about, and face, what you are saying here. Also, I didn't see any 'glee' in Kevorkian's stand, and I do not think he 'got off' on killing people. I think this is an eye of the beholder thing, and something attributed to him by those who deplore his methods. I see that he felt strongly about doctor-assisted suicide, and that he was willing to risk (and eventually, endure) imprisonment for his beliefs. Funny thing, Christian martyrs who break laws for their beliefs are seen as heroes... can anybody say 'hypocrisy?' I thought you could. One person;s 'hero' is another person's 'zealot.' Same situation, different perspective. The fact is, it was LARGELY due to the exposure of the issue, brought on BY Kevorkian's acts, that assisted suicide is now legal in some states. If he was so wrong, and such a ghoul, then why do so many people agree with him? I find it amazing that people will take comfort in knowing that 'the majority' agrees with them, and use this as justification for their beliefs... but when 'the majority' disagrees with them, they take JUST as much delight in denouncing that majority as 'clueless.' People are funny creatures... And speaking of people being creatures, I agree with Heathen and Mrs. P that we are kinder to our pets than we are to one another, on the subject of ending life with dignity. I see no moral issue with ending the suffering of a terminal patient. There is a big difference between some teenager or jilted lover who takes their life as some dramatic act 'to end the pain,' and someone dying of cancer or some other horrifically painful illness that has robbed them of any semblance of joy in life. This is not life, it is existing in agony, and it is IMO CRUEL on the part of those who would deny them the opportunity to decide when they have had enough. As for souls, humans are extremely arrogant to believe they are the ONLY ones so privileged... Quote that book all you want to, aimhigh; it is certainly NOT the only source of spiritual enlightenment on this planet, and hate to break it to you but your self-serving interpretation isn't even honest to the letter of its law. You, as most other current Christians, pick and choose the tenets you agree with and ignore the rest. Sorry, but that does not give you any kind of moral claim to high ground here or elsewhere. Interesting point, but no, I do not believe that taking chemo for cancer is on the same level as ending one's life because of that cancer. In my opinion, and I'll say it again.... in my opinion, which I freely and unashamedly admit is based upon my own religious belief....I believe God has given us the power to use whatever devices we have developed, through the use of our intelligence,which he also gifted to us, to alleviate pain, suffering, heal, and bring comfort to humankind. I firmly belive, however, that ending a human life, created by him, is not in keeping with his will, and therefore I believe it to be wrong. I don't believe Kevorkian was malicious in his actions. I truly believe that he felt what he was doing was humanitarian, and that the people he helped wanted his help to end their lives of suffering. I don't judge him. It isn't my place. I just believe that what he felt was the right thing...wasn't.....based on my religious beliefs.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2006 17:24:57 GMT -5
Interesting point, but no, I do not believe that taking chemo for cancer is on the same level as ending one's life because of that cancer. In my opinion, and I'll say it again.... in my opinion, which I freely and unashamedly admit is based upon my own religious belief....I believe God has given us the power to use whatever devices we have developed, through the use of our intelligence,which he also gifted to us, to alleviate pain, suffering, heal, and bring comfort to humankind. I firmly belive, however, that ending a human life, created by him, is not in keeping with his will, and therefore I believe it to be wrong. I don't believe Kevorkian was malicious in his actions. I truly believe that he felt what he was doing was humanitarian, and that the people he helped wanted his help to end their lives of suffering. I don't judge him. It isn't my place. I just believe that what he felt was the right thing...wasn't.....based on my religious beliefs. Well said parrot, and I'm not that religious.
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Post by Chevy on Dec 17, 2006 17:56:04 GMT -5
Lemme see: so as a Christian, you believe ... Calling into question another's Christianity seems to be all the rage nowadays. Tasteless. No more tasteless than your predictable sniping at those who disagree with you. Bizz and aimhigh both cited their Christianity as justification for their position that euthanasia was wrong. I posed a question based on their STATED beliefs. If you find this tasteless, too bad. I don't care much for YOUR 'taste' most of the time either, nor do I have much use for your smug attitude, but until now I've had better manners than to say so. You just lost the limited protection of my better instincts.
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Post by Chevy on Dec 17, 2006 17:58:51 GMT -5
What a pile of BS, it was obvious that he enjoyed taking lives. You weren't paying attention or were too wrapped up in your own opinion of the actual acts to see it. *shrug* That is your opinion, based on YOUR interpretation of his actions. I saw the same actions, and interpreted what I saw differently. Different POV. The difference between us is that I will not take your POV into question and denounce it as "BS;" I respect your right to see it differently while still disagreeing with you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2006 18:15:32 GMT -5
What a pile of BS, it was obvious that he enjoyed taking lives. You weren't paying attention or were too wrapped up in your own opinion of the actual acts to see it. *shrug* That is your opinion, based on YOUR interpretation of his actions. I saw the same actions, and interpreted what I saw differently. Different POV. The difference between us is that I will not take your POV into question and denounce it as "BS;" I respect your right to see it differently while still disagreeing with you. Well, BS may have been a bit colorful.
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Post by Chevy on Dec 17, 2006 18:21:35 GMT -5
Interesting point, but no, I do not believe that taking chemo for cancer is on the same level as ending one's life because of that cancer. In my opinion, and I'll say it again.... in my opinion, which I freely and unashamedly admit is based upon my own religious belief....I believe God has given us the power to use whatever devices we have developed, through the use of our intelligence,which he also gifted to us, to alleviate pain, suffering, heal, and bring comfort to humankind. I firmly belive, however, that ending a human life, created by him, is not in keeping with his will, and therefore I believe it to be wrong. I can understand, and respect, that you feel that way, Bizz. And for those who feel that way, no one is forcing them to be killed before their 'time.' But what about those of us who believe that God also gave us the right of self-determination; and who believe fervently that release from unnecessary and relentless suffering is an act of love? Is there a difference, for example, in the FACT that giving a cancer patient morphine will speed their end; is that not thwarting God's will for the length of that person's life? It WILL hasten their end; and yet it will also bring relief. Can you NOT SEE that some of us equate the release from ENDLESS pain, to be nothing more than the same thing? MY problem is the fact that those who use their religion to justify their actions, have set in place a body of law that makes it illegal for me, and others, to determine when we should be allowed to die, and in what way. In effect, those 'religious beliefs' are being used to inflict untold suffering on others who feel very differently. This is not really different, if you think about it, than the behavior of those during the witch hunts or the Inquisition, who truly believed that this torture was 'for the good of their souls,' and they could therefore justify to themselves (and rationalize, and stomach) this kind of suffering inflicted on their fellow man. We are talking about the same God here, are we not? Religion can be a high, and holy, and beneficent good within a people. But it must also be admitted that religion can be a bad, and dangerous, and malicious influence too, depending on *which* Scriptures are being emphasized, and to what purpose. Human history abounds with examples.
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Post by Chevy on Dec 17, 2006 18:23:03 GMT -5
Well, BS may have been a bit colorful. Well, we all know you're a colorful sort, Grumps. ;D
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Post by bizzalou on Dec 17, 2006 18:47:32 GMT -5
Interesting point, but no, I do not believe that taking chemo for cancer is on the same level as ending one's life because of that cancer. In my opinion, and I'll say it again.... in my opinion, which I freely and unashamedly admit is based upon my own religious belief....I believe God has given us the power to use whatever devices we have developed, through the use of our intelligence,which he also gifted to us, to alleviate pain, suffering, heal, and bring comfort to humankind. I firmly belive, however, that ending a human life, created by him, is not in keeping with his will, and therefore I believe it to be wrong. I can understand, and respect, that you feel that way, Bizz. And for those who feel that way, no one is forcing them to be killed before their 'time.' But what about those of us who believe that God also gave us the right of self-determination; and who believe fervently that release from unnecessary and relentless suffering is an act of love? Is there a difference, for example, in the FACT that giving a cancer patient morphine will speed their end; is that not thwarting God's will for the length of that person's life? It WILL hasten their end; and yet it will also bring relief. Can you NOT SEE that some of us equate the release from ENDLESS pain, to be nothing more than the same thing? MY problem is the fact that those who use their religion to justify their actions, have set in place a body of law that makes it illegal for me, and others, to determine when we should be allowed to die, and in what way. In effect, those 'religious beliefs' are being used to inflict untold suffering on others who feel very differently. This is not really different, if you think about it, than the behavior of those during the witch hunts or the Inquisition, who truly believed that this torture was 'for the good of their souls,' and they could therefore justify to themselves (and rationalize, and stomach) this kind of suffering inflicted on their fellow man. We are talking about the same God here, are we not? Religion can be a high, and holy, and beneficent good within a people. But it must also be admitted that religion can be a bad, and dangerous, and malicious influence too, depending on *which* Scriptures are being emphasized, and to what purpose. Human history abounds with examples. I suppose we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree then, Chevy. I don't think the killing of suspected "witches" was within God's will, any more than I believe the ethnic cleansing attempts of Hitler or Hussein were. Medications which are given to terminally ill people to supress their suffering, and not for the purpose of hastening their death (whether they unintentionally do or not) are incomparable with intentional "mercy killing". I am not able to draw any sort of parallel to them. In my belief...I agree that God gave us "free will" which I think correlates with "right of determination", which you termed. But along with that, he gave us commandments with which to guide us in those determinations...and one of them was thou shalt not kill. Because of my religious beliefs, to me it is clear, and without any gray areas. I've never stated that I thought, because of my beliefs, that Kevorkian's actions should have resulted in incarceration, or that laws should be enacted against euthanasia for religious reasons. I won't have to answer for what anyone else has done in their life here on earth, except for myself, and I don't pretend to know how anyone (including myself) will be judged in the end.
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Post by Anna on Dec 17, 2006 18:50:51 GMT -5
Calling into question another's Christianity seems to be all the rage nowadays. Tasteless. No more tasteless than your predictable sniping at those who disagree with you. Bizz and aimhigh both cited their Christianity as justification for their position that euthanasia was wrong. I posed a question based on their STATED beliefs. If you find this tasteless, too bad. I don't care much for YOUR 'taste' most of the time either, nor do I have much use for your smug attitude, but until now I've had better manners than to say so. You just lost the limited protection of my better instincts. It was not my intent to make a comment that was, perhaps, even more tasteless than the one which prompted my comment. I shall try to deal with the lost "limited protection" of your better instincts. I wasn't aware of having a predilection to sniping, or of being considered smug. If that be so, it is something that won't soon be corrected considering that I would have no idea on where to start. Having recently lost my husband to cancer, your statement that it was FACT that morphine hastened death, is a statement which I disagree with. It is a subject about which I recently and vigorously pursued knowledge. There is way to much information written on the subject for me to even consider posting links to cover it all. Here is one which states a view which opposes yours:
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Post by Chevy on Dec 17, 2006 19:01:13 GMT -5
I am not calling your faith into question here, Bizz. The difference here is that YOU are not constrained in acting out YOUR beliefs by the status quo; it is in accordance with your beliefs. But it is NOT in accordance with the wishes of a lot of other people, many of whom are actually Christians themselves who just see things differently. This is why we object. I do not object to you doing as you see fit. I *do* object to people who band together 'for religious reasons' and enact, and defend, laws that remove rights of free determination from others. No matter how good their intentions are, or how 'faith based' they may be. You do not see a gray area; but I do. And I do not equate releasing someone from endless suffering to be the same as 'killing;' which I take to mean as TAKING a life for personal reasons, not shortening one by a day or a week or a month that is already doomed. Especially when those last days or weeks are nothing more than an extension of agony. I do not understand why you seem to believe I am *blaming* you for the actions of others; I used the situations of the witch trials and etc as nothing more than examples of logical inconsistencies. I was not implying that these or other atrocities performed in the name of religion were in any way your fault. Simply pointing out the inconsistency in the logic. It sounds to me like you are becoming defensive, and this was not my intent. If not, I apologize in advance for the perception, but that is how it reads. Since you seem to feel that I am attacking you for some reason, I will decline from continuing the conversation.
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Post by Chevy on Dec 17, 2006 19:07:54 GMT -5
It was not my intent to make a comment that was, perhaps, even more tasteless than the one which prompted my comment. I shall try to deal with the lost "limited protection" of your better instincts. I wasn't aware of having a predilection to sniping, or of being considered smug. If that be so, it is something that won't soon be corrected considering that I would have no idea on where to start. Having recently lost my husband to cancer, your statement that it was FACT that morphine hastened death, is a statement which I disagree with. It is a subject about which I recently and vigorously pursued knowledge. There is way to much information written on the subject for me to even consider posting links to cover it all. I am sorry for your loss. However, having lost SEVERAL close family members as well as my best friend to cancer, I am completely conversant with the medical uses, and limitations, of morphine therapy. And hastening of death is a well documented issue. Not to mention, I take an opioid DAILY for unmanageable pain. I do so with the full knowledge that I am shaving years off my life. I make that decision based on my belief that quality of life is preferable to length. Which is pursuant to the discussion HERE. As for the supposed 'tastelessness' of my original comment, that is a matter of perception. You are entitled to your opinion, and it was poor manners for me to remark on your pronouncement. My bad.
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