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Post by shyone on Dec 17, 2006 21:29:32 GMT -5
Everyone has their own interpretation of the bible and has deferent beliefs, Their is no wrong or right belief. I believe that is why god gave us minds to come up with our own beliefs. I wont judge someone because they believe different then me, or practice a different religion then me. But I do believe god gave us the ability to chose if we are terminally sick to end the suffering and not cause emotional and financial hardships on our loved ones. Dr Death might be a sick individual but he was doing something he believed in in my opinion.
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Post by bizzalou on Dec 17, 2006 22:24:00 GMT -5
I am not calling your faith into question here, Bizz. The difference here is that YOU are not constrained in acting out YOUR beliefs by the status quo; it is in accordance with your beliefs. But it is NOT in accordance with the wishes of a lot of other people, many of whom are actually Christians themselves who just see things differently. This is why we object. I do not object to you doing as you see fit. I *do* object to people who band together 'for religious reasons' and enact, and defend, laws that remove rights of free determination from others. No matter how good their intentions are, or how 'faith based' they may be. You do not see a gray area; but I do. And I do not equate releasing someone from endless suffering to be the same as 'killing;' which I take to mean as TAKING a life for personal reasons, not shortening one by a day or a week or a month that is already doomed. Especially when those last days or weeks are nothing more than an extension of agony. I do not understand why you seem to believe I am *blaming* you for the actions of others; I used the situations of the witch trials and etc as nothing more than examples of logical inconsistencies. I was not implying that these or other atrocities performed in the name of religion were in any way your fault. Simply pointing out the inconsistency in the logic. It sounds to me like you are becoming defensive, and this was not my intent. If not, I apologize in advance for the perception, but that is how it reads. Since you seem to feel that I am attacking you for some reason, I will decline from continuing the conversation. No, no! I never felt that you were attacking me, Chev. I was just trying to clarify where I saw things differently than you do. I respect the difference. I can't expect you to agree with my way of thinking about this, since we're not coming at the subject from the same place. While I don't believe either of us will change the others' mind on the issue, it is good to at least gain an understanding of another perspective. I wasn't offended at all, and apologize for giving that perception.
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Post by heathenesque on Dec 18, 2006 2:47:58 GMT -5
If one believes that "mercy killing" of terminally ill patients goes against God's will, that is their choice.
But what if I'm terminally ill, not on life support, yet inapable of killing myself? What if MY choice is to die with dignity? Shouldn't I be allowed that? Why should I, personally, be forced to suffer excruciating pain, and be forced to watch my family and friends suffer along with me, because someone else decided that my desire to die was a sin?
How is that right? How is that compassionate? How is that even humane?
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Post by Anna on Dec 18, 2006 2:57:06 GMT -5
How is that right? How is that compassionate? How is that even humane? It's an imperfect world, filled with imperfect people. I should know cuz I are one.
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Post by heathenesque on Dec 18, 2006 3:03:42 GMT -5
How is that right? How is that compassionate? How is that even humane? It's an imperfect world, filled with imperfect people. I should know cuz I are one. So am I. But does this give one group of people the right to make decisions that effect everyone? Even those who disagree on philosophical grounds? That's the question. Do you, or Bizz, or Koinonia, or Grumpy have the right to decide whether I can be allowed to die with dignity, if I prefer to do so? Is it compassion to force a person to continue existing, who does not wish to live in pain any longer?
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Post by Anna on Dec 18, 2006 3:18:28 GMT -5
It's an imperfect world, filled with imperfect people. I should know cuz I are one. So am I. But does this give one group of people the right to make decisions that effect everyone? Even those who disagree on philosophical grounds? That's the question. Do you, or Bizz, or Koinonia, or Grumpy have the right to decide whether I can be allowed to die with dignity, if I prefer to do so? Is it compassion to force a person to continue existing, who does not wish to live in pain any longer? I have given no opinion on the subject of assisted suicide, the reason being that I am torn on the subject as far as making or keeping such a law goes. On a personal level, as difficult as it was, watching while Keith suffered until death took him, I could not---would not have---opted for euthanasia, nor would I opt for it for myself. That is on a personal level. Having a "do not resuscitate" order is as far as I could go. Keith had such an order and there is one for me also.
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Post by Chevy on Dec 18, 2006 4:11:15 GMT -5
Anna, I respect your wishes and your decision, and I am sure your husband did too. As for myself, I have a Living Will, so my family should never have to make that hard choice. Vox prefers to be kept alive as long as possible should he be incapacitated, and I would absolutely live up to that decision and support it, although of course I hope I will never have to. As for myself, when I have reached a point where life itself has no meaning, I want the plug pulled. It isn't out of fear for myself, it is from both being a participant, and watching the horror and pain that other family members have gone through as loved ones suffered and died in unmeasurable and untreatable pain. I have some nursing training, and since I don't have a 'day job' myself to try and get time off from, I have been the natural choice when any of our family or extended family has had serious illness. I nursed my grandmother and my best friend's grandmother as they died of cancer; I watched my father wither away in an unrecoverable coma for months; I was with my best friend for the last several weeks of her life, helping to care for her around the clock, and in each of these cases I saw what it did to the family. I would never want to wish that grief on my own loved ones.
Like you, I too am torn on assisted suicide. I tend to err on the side of freedom for the individual to decide, when faced with philosophical debates. But, I can also see the slippery slope of trying to decide FOR someone else, when they have had 'enough,' without clear instructions. Not to mention the nasty little vultures who would send Grandma off a bit quicker so they could get their hands on the inheritance before her health problems ate through the balance... Yes, it is a difficult subject, with IMO no really clear answers.
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Kissy
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Post by Kissy on Dec 18, 2006 11:57:56 GMT -5
Speaking only for myself, I want the option to end my life if the circumstances warrent it. If I'm dying, on life support, suffering, and in excruciating pain, I don't want my husband to have to endure watching me die slowly and horribly. I don't want that for him. I don't want that for me either. That is my personal decision. And has little bearing on anyone else, nor is it intended to be dependant on another person's faith. To each their own, but given MY set of circumstances, and how I personally view my OWN mortality, I find myself in support of Euthanasia provided that the right to die is done so under the right set of circumstances. The "circumstances" are where I have issues. If someone believe that their religious principals dictate to them NOT to enact such measure, I respect that. I only ask the same regarding my position.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2006 12:11:55 GMT -5
Those that believe in the "right to die with dignity" given any thought to who should make that decision? Maybe a relative that is tired of waiting on their inheritance, some dolt that has no idea if you are really terminal or not, or maybe someone like Dr Death that just wants to make a point.
Miracle cures happen often nowadays, how would you like to be killed with a cure for you discovered the next day?
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Post by Bleu - Jewelry Goddess on Dec 18, 2006 12:50:36 GMT -5
Miracle cures happen often nowadays, how would you like to be killed with a cure for you discovered the next day? Heh, guess if I was dead, I wouldn't have much of an opinion on the cure.
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Kissy
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Post by Kissy on Dec 18, 2006 12:59:34 GMT -5
Those that believe in the "right to die with dignity" given any thought to who should make that decision? Maybe a relative that is tired of waiting on their inheritance, some dolt that has no idea if you are really terminal or not, or maybe someone like Dr Death that just wants to make a point. Miracle cures happen often nowadays, how would you like to be killed with a cure for you discovered the next day? That's why I mentioned "circumstances". That's why it is VERY VERY important to have a living will. That way no one can question the decision to pull the plug, if such measures are stated. Or for that matter, have to make the decision FOR you because your wishes were unknown, unclear, or challenged because of emotional strain. That decision starts getting a little muddy when it involves large inheritances, peeved family members, or just plain evil individuals who wish to knock off anyone they can. It's a two way street however. IF someone has made it clear that they are NOT willing to suffer through whatever end comes about, their choice shouldn't be removed from them because a Doctor disagrees with such measures, or because a lone family member objects under religious grounds. Just as someone shouldn't have their life ended because someone doesn't LIKE watching them suffer, even though the patient in question has requested that EVERY measure be taken to prolong life for as long as the body is willing.
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Post by heathenesque on Dec 18, 2006 13:18:56 GMT -5
Like you, I too am torn on assisted suicide. I tend to err on the side of freedom for the individual to decide, when faced with philosophical debates. But, I can also see the slippery slope of trying to decide FOR someone else, when they have had 'enough,' without clear instructions. Not to mention the nasty little vultures who would send Grandma off a bit quicker so they could get their hands on the inheritance before her health problems ate through the balance... Yes, it is a difficult subject, with IMO no really clear answers. Exactly! That's where the iffiness comes in, is when someone doesn't leave clear instructions. That's why everyone knows my wishes. Not just family, but friends as well. There will be NO question, if this happens to me. Living Wills, for all the good they -should- do, are being ignored by doctors on a regular basis. Especially if there is a living will, and the family and friends didn't know about it. I understand that the living will is more likely to be honored if EVERYONE is clear on the patient's wishes, but if there is any question, then the will is worth no more than the paper it's printed on. We all die eventually. Making our final wishes clear to everyone in our lives shouldn't be a subject that gets swept under the rug.
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Post by heathenesque on Dec 18, 2006 13:23:10 GMT -5
Those that believe in the "right to die with dignity" given any thought to who should make that decision? Maybe a relative that is tired of waiting on their inheritance, some dolt that has no idea if you are really terminal or not, or maybe someone like Dr Death that just wants to make a point. Miracle cures happen often nowadays, how would you like to be killed with a cure for you discovered the next day? The cure might be discovered the next day, but it'll be 2-5 years before it's FDA approved, or even available. In that time, I'm dying, in agony, and by the time I can get this "cure", I'll be too far gone for it to work, or already dead. Sorry, not a valid argument. On the other hand, IF a cure was already found, and in the process of being approved, that would be different. As for who makes the decision? -I- do. By making a living will AND letting everyone close to me know my wishes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2006 13:23:53 GMT -5
Like you, I too am torn on assisted suicide. I tend to err on the side of freedom for the individual to decide, when faced with philosophical debates. But, I can also see the slippery slope of trying to decide FOR someone else, when they have had 'enough,' without clear instructions. Not to mention the nasty little vultures who would send Grandma off a bit quicker so they could get their hands on the inheritance before her health problems ate through the balance... Yes, it is a difficult subject, with IMO no really clear answers. Exactly! That's where the iffiness comes in, is when someone doesn't leave clear instructions. That's why everyone knows my wishes. Not just family, but friends as well. There will be NO question, if this happens to me. Living Wills, for all the good they -should- do, are being ignored by doctors on a regular basis. Especially if there is a living will, and the family and friends didn't know about it. I understand that the living will is more likely to be honored if EVERYONE is clear on the patient's wishes, but if there is any question, then the will is worth no more than the paper it's printed on. We all die eventually. Making our final wishes clear to everyone in our lives shouldn't be a subject that gets swept under the rug. I disagree, the "iffiness" comes in when there are varying opinions among doctors that a person is terminal or not, and that happens every day.
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Post by heathenesque on Dec 18, 2006 13:28:04 GMT -5
Exactly! That's where the iffiness comes in, is when someone doesn't leave clear instructions. That's why everyone knows my wishes. Not just family, but friends as well. There will be NO question, if this happens to me. Living Wills, for all the good they -should- do, are being ignored by doctors on a regular basis. Especially if there is a living will, and the family and friends didn't know about it. I understand that the living will is more likely to be honored if EVERYONE is clear on the patient's wishes, but if there is any question, then the will is worth no more than the paper it's printed on. We all die eventually. Making our final wishes clear to everyone in our lives shouldn't be a subject that gets swept under the rug. I disagree, the "iffiness" comes in when there are varying opinions among doctors that a person is terminal or not, and that happens every day. Grumpy, the only time there is really any disagreement over that is in the early stages of an illness. And then the patient might still have enough quality of life to wait anyway. By the time someone is at the point of wanting assisted suicide is when there is NO argument over whether it's terminal, they are wasting away, unable to get out of bed, under so many heavy pain-killers that they can't tell reality from dreams... and just before they go on life support. At that point, it's pretty obvious to EVERYONE that the patient is dying, and doing so slowly and painfully. If YOU wish to hang on until you no longer can, that is your decision. Mine is different and you do NOT have the right to take it from me.
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